For thus says the Lord GOD: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four disastrous acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild beasts, and pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast! (Eze 14:21 ESV)
And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. (Rev 6:8 ESV)
I’ve often argued that the wrath of God occurs before the opening of the 7th seal by pointing out the similarity of the language between Rev 6:8 and Ezekiel 14:21. Going over some of my study records I noticed this comment by Dr Charles Cooper in response to a critique by Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum:
“Fruchtenbaum fails to notice that these words are spoken against Jerusalem and not one fourth of the world as indicated in the fourth seal of Revelation 6:7. Rosenthal does not say that God has not used these judgments in the past as Fruchtenbaum indirectly intimates. The issue is whether Scripture indicates that God will use these judgments in the future against one fourth of the world. There is no prophecy in the Old Testament that God is going to use these judgments against the world during the "great tribulation." Not one!”
Dr Cooper is well within his rights to defend his system even though there are articles on his website that dish criticism out.
However, he seems to miss the obvious point. The issue isn’t who Ez 14 is addressed to in the OT but what the judgments were composed of and the fact that they were called judgments.
That they were called judgments in the OT and the same effects are released by the Lamb - who is the only one with the authority to open the seal - is compelling evidence that this is God’s wrath. Those who disagree must provide viable evidence to the contrary.
Friday, February 11, 2011
Saturday, February 5, 2011
Tribulation? Elect? No problems!
Lately I’ve been immersing myself in studying the Atonement. Of particular interest to me is the doctrine of Limited Atonement which is the L in the Calvinistic acronym T.U.L.I.P. In a nutshell, Limited Atonement holds that Christ died to redeem ONLY the ELECT.
If you’re a Reformed 5 pointer, a more “efficient” rendering of John 3:16 might conceivably read as follows:
"For God so loved the ELECT, which He predestined to salvation, that he gave his only Son, that whoever (of the ELECT, though they have no choice) believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 ESV (with some additions)
The elect were sovereignly chosen by God for salvation in eternity past. They were predestined. In fact they really had no choice in it due to Irresistible Grace. Once you are chosen you are saved and the best part is that you won’t lose that salvation because of what’s called Perseverance.
If you’re not one of the ELECT/CHOSEN, well…see, there’s this thing about Total Depravity. Sorry about that.
I realize I’m being somewhat flippant here. This is a serious issue.
But the subject got me to thinking – how does this affect pre-Millennial eschatology? Specifically, being prepared for the Great Tribulation and the possibility of taking the mark of the Beast if you’re a miscalculating pretribber?
Remember that you’re one of the ELECT! Your salvation has been sovereignly determined in eternity past. You were regenerated even before you could have faith. There was nothing you could do to gain salvation – and nothing to lose it.
Right?
The odd thing is that pretribulationism is sometimes frowned upon by the Reformed, pre-mil, 5 pointers who fret over the pretribulationist’s capacity to endure the Great Tribulation with their souls intact. Here’s a typical example:
“…who will be more prepared for this test? the person who is taught that this test will be applied to the Church and thus must have faith to endure; or, the person who is taught that the Church will be swept away in bed's of ease before the Antichrist uses the mark as a test of loyalty?”
So pretribulationists are being cautioned to "test their election", that they are not deceived and left wanting during the tribulation. Isn’t this contradictory…or am I missing something?
What endurance and what test?
Remember T.U.L.I.P.?
How can unsaved individuals - who weren’t Predestined - prepare for the “test of loyalty” if there’s nothing they can do to contribute to their salvation? On the other side of the coin, if you’re one of the ELECT then there’s nothing you can do to lose that salvation.
If you’re a consistent proponent of T.U.L.I.P., then, logically, it’s all been predetermined.
******
Man says:
" ...the conversion of a sinner being not owing to a man's self determination, but to God's determination, and eternal election, which is absolute, and depending on the sovereign Will of God, and not on the free will of man; as is evident from what has been said : and it being very evident from the Scriptures, that the eternal election of saints to the faith and holiness, is also an election of them to eternal salvation; hence their appointment to salvation must also be absolute, and not depending on their contingent, self-determining Will." Jonathan Edwards
God says:
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
And John 3:16 (without man's redefinition):
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
If you’re a Reformed 5 pointer, a more “efficient” rendering of John 3:16 might conceivably read as follows:
"For God so loved the ELECT, which He predestined to salvation, that he gave his only Son, that whoever (of the ELECT, though they have no choice) believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 ESV (with some additions)
The elect were sovereignly chosen by God for salvation in eternity past. They were predestined. In fact they really had no choice in it due to Irresistible Grace. Once you are chosen you are saved and the best part is that you won’t lose that salvation because of what’s called Perseverance.
If you’re not one of the ELECT/CHOSEN, well…see, there’s this thing about Total Depravity. Sorry about that.
I realize I’m being somewhat flippant here. This is a serious issue.
But the subject got me to thinking – how does this affect pre-Millennial eschatology? Specifically, being prepared for the Great Tribulation and the possibility of taking the mark of the Beast if you’re a miscalculating pretribber?
Remember that you’re one of the ELECT! Your salvation has been sovereignly determined in eternity past. You were regenerated even before you could have faith. There was nothing you could do to gain salvation – and nothing to lose it.
Right?
The odd thing is that pretribulationism is sometimes frowned upon by the Reformed, pre-mil, 5 pointers who fret over the pretribulationist’s capacity to endure the Great Tribulation with their souls intact. Here’s a typical example:
“…who will be more prepared for this test? the person who is taught that this test will be applied to the Church and thus must have faith to endure; or, the person who is taught that the Church will be swept away in bed's of ease before the Antichrist uses the mark as a test of loyalty?”
So pretribulationists are being cautioned to "test their election", that they are not deceived and left wanting during the tribulation. Isn’t this contradictory…or am I missing something?
What endurance and what test?
Remember T.U.L.I.P.?
How can unsaved individuals - who weren’t Predestined - prepare for the “test of loyalty” if there’s nothing they can do to contribute to their salvation? On the other side of the coin, if you’re one of the ELECT then there’s nothing you can do to lose that salvation.
If you’re a consistent proponent of T.U.L.I.P., then, logically, it’s all been predetermined.
******
Man says:
" ...the conversion of a sinner being not owing to a man's self determination, but to God's determination, and eternal election, which is absolute, and depending on the sovereign Will of God, and not on the free will of man; as is evident from what has been said : and it being very evident from the Scriptures, that the eternal election of saints to the faith and holiness, is also an election of them to eternal salvation; hence their appointment to salvation must also be absolute, and not depending on their contingent, self-determining Will." Jonathan Edwards
God says:
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
And John 3:16 (without man's redefinition):
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Thursday, January 27, 2011
Things that make me go hmmm
I received another comment from a spammer suggesting readers go Google a site containing MacPherson’s anti-Darby propaganda. The comment began with “Just ran across your interesting blog…” That person had already posted the same diatribe here before but they must have lost track of blogs they’d spammed. They also suggested that I owed Dave MacPherson and Joe Ortiz an apology regarding one of my posts.
Ortiz has an activist blog that’s dedicated to promoting MacPherson’s agenda. Not that long ago he posted a segment of a sentence from Margaret MacDonald’s vision that he claimed was new data from MacPherson proving she had a pre-trib vision. I was alerted to this by another spammer who was promoting Ortiz’s blog.
One tiny problem - there wasn’t any new data.
That portion of sentence was lifted from MacDonald’s vision which has been available for years. Taken in a section it’s ambiguous but taken in context it isn’t pretribulational. Furthermore, statements in the rest of the vision clearly show that MacDonald believed the Church would be tested by the Antichrist. Ortiz must have known that and yet he still deceitfully contrived to only show that portion of the vision while disregarding the statements that unmistakably contradicted his allegations.
I was reading at a forum where one of the contributors called pre-trib a satanic doctrine from Hell. This person owns a blog that’s peppered with this same sort of vitriol against pretribbers. A more recent post contains the following insightful remarks:
“Here's some more bad news for the pre-tribulation rapture cult that is losing its popularity as more people are having their eyes opened that I ran across by accident that will make satan's (sic) little helpers shake in their boots. These deluded people, refuse to believe the truth of God's Word, and think they are the elites of all of Christianity, believing they will be secretly removed from the earth before the great tribulation to escape the persecution promised the saints of God all through the Bible, except, of course, for "them”…God doesn't keep His children in darkness; that is satan's (sic) plan. Actually, nothing happens by accident for a Bible believing Christian and the Lord must have wanted this little gem to get more exposure. ”
Pardon me while I quake in my “pre-tribulation rapture cult” boots.
The article she references is from a pre-wrath blog and is a gibe at KJB only pretribulationists. The inference is that if the author of that Bible’s margin note on Matt 24:31 (linking it to rapture passages) was a translator and the KJB only translators and translation are divinely inspired, then the rapture occurs at that verse.
Of course, the KJB only guys would probably argue that the inspiration was limited to translation and not doctrine if that doctrine disagreed with their view. Also, Matt 24:31 occurs at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not three quarters of the way through it.
About four years ago I was given a link to a non pre-trib website and encouraged to study that rapture view. The web mistress has a section addressing some pre-trib “problems”. At the end she welcomes comments and questions from pretribbers.
Later on I learned that Jason Hommel of Silver Stock Report sent a detailed response which can be read online. I contacted him to ask whether she got back to him. She hadn’t. He suggested I try as well.
I answered her questions and then I pointed out what I deemed to be problem areas in her system which I felt needed clarifying. There was no reply. That website still invites comments and one might conclude that pretribbers have no adequate answers to her probing issues. One might be wrong.
On one prophecy forum someone once asked why pretribbers were so adamant that they were right. Judging by his insistence regarding his own view, one might have asked the same question of himself, but it seems the irony was lost on him.
Like I said; things that make me go hmmm.
Note: I should point out that most disp. pretribulationists do not believe that the rapture is only for "them".
The Rapture Plot
Manuel Lacunza Conspiracy?
The King James Only Debate
Ortiz has an activist blog that’s dedicated to promoting MacPherson’s agenda. Not that long ago he posted a segment of a sentence from Margaret MacDonald’s vision that he claimed was new data from MacPherson proving she had a pre-trib vision. I was alerted to this by another spammer who was promoting Ortiz’s blog.
One tiny problem - there wasn’t any new data.
That portion of sentence was lifted from MacDonald’s vision which has been available for years. Taken in a section it’s ambiguous but taken in context it isn’t pretribulational. Furthermore, statements in the rest of the vision clearly show that MacDonald believed the Church would be tested by the Antichrist. Ortiz must have known that and yet he still deceitfully contrived to only show that portion of the vision while disregarding the statements that unmistakably contradicted his allegations.
I was reading at a forum where one of the contributors called pre-trib a satanic doctrine from Hell. This person owns a blog that’s peppered with this same sort of vitriol against pretribbers. A more recent post contains the following insightful remarks:
“Here's some more bad news for the pre-tribulation rapture cult that is losing its popularity as more people are having their eyes opened that I ran across by accident that will make satan's (sic) little helpers shake in their boots. These deluded people, refuse to believe the truth of God's Word, and think they are the elites of all of Christianity, believing they will be secretly removed from the earth before the great tribulation to escape the persecution promised the saints of God all through the Bible, except, of course, for "them”…God doesn't keep His children in darkness; that is satan's (sic) plan. Actually, nothing happens by accident for a Bible believing Christian and the Lord must have wanted this little gem to get more exposure. ”
Pardon me while I quake in my “pre-tribulation rapture cult” boots.
The article she references is from a pre-wrath blog and is a gibe at KJB only pretribulationists. The inference is that if the author of that Bible’s margin note on Matt 24:31 (linking it to rapture passages) was a translator and the KJB only translators and translation are divinely inspired, then the rapture occurs at that verse.
Of course, the KJB only guys would probably argue that the inspiration was limited to translation and not doctrine if that doctrine disagreed with their view. Also, Matt 24:31 occurs at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not three quarters of the way through it.
About four years ago I was given a link to a non pre-trib website and encouraged to study that rapture view. The web mistress has a section addressing some pre-trib “problems”. At the end she welcomes comments and questions from pretribbers.
Later on I learned that Jason Hommel of Silver Stock Report sent a detailed response which can be read online. I contacted him to ask whether she got back to him. She hadn’t. He suggested I try as well.
I answered her questions and then I pointed out what I deemed to be problem areas in her system which I felt needed clarifying. There was no reply. That website still invites comments and one might conclude that pretribbers have no adequate answers to her probing issues. One might be wrong.
On one prophecy forum someone once asked why pretribbers were so adamant that they were right. Judging by his insistence regarding his own view, one might have asked the same question of himself, but it seems the irony was lost on him.
Like I said; things that make me go hmmm.
Note: I should point out that most disp. pretribulationists do not believe that the rapture is only for "them".
The Rapture Plot
Manuel Lacunza Conspiracy?
The King James Only Debate
Saturday, January 8, 2011
The Hermeneutic of Reinterpretation
It’s no wonder we have so many differences in understanding Scripture. Take these quotes for example:
The Old Testament must be interpreted by the New Testament. In principle it is quite possible that the prophecies addressed originally to literal Israel describing physical blessings have their fulfillment exclusively in the spiritual blessings enjoyed by the church. It is also possible that the Old Testament expectation of a kingdom on earth could be reinterpreted by the New Testament altogether of blessings in the spiritual realm. (Historic premillennialist George Ladd)
But eschatological themes are reinterpreted in the New Testament, where we are told these Old Testament images are types and shadows of the glorious realities that are fulfilled in Jesus Christ…This [literal interpretation of the Bible] leaves dispensationalists frequently stuck in the awkward position of insisting on an Old Testament interpretation of a prophetic theme that has been reinterpreted in the New Testament in the light of the messianic age which dawned in Jesus Christ. (Amillennialist Kim Riddlebarger)
Jesus and the apostles reinterpreted the Old Testament…Their selective and dualistic hermeneutic leads Christian Zionists to ignore how Jesus and the apostles reinterpreted the Old Testament. (Anti-Zionist Stephen Sizer)
Jesus spent His whole ministry redefining what the kingdom meant. He refused to give up the symbolic language of the kingdom, but filled it with such a new content that, as we have seen, he powerfully subverted Jewish expectations. (Theologian N. T. Wright)
Redefining? Re-interpreting? These “theologians” are dead serious! I’ve been reading self-proclaimed ex-dispie Kim Riddlebarger’s “A Case for Amillennialism” and have a potential bald spot from where I’ve been scratching my head re his methodology.
The OT has some specific and detailed statements that address the future of Israel. If the NT redefines or re-interprets these then it is nothing more than abrogation.
If Ladd is correct that the NT reinterprets the OT, his hermeneutic does raise some serious questions. How can the integrity of the OT text be maintained? In what sense can the OT really be called a revelation in its original meaning? (Paul Feinberg)
If NT reinterpretation reverses, cancels, or seriously modifies OT promises to Israel, one wonders how to define the word "progressive.‟ God‟s faithfulness to His promises to Israel must also be explained… It appears exceedingly doubtful that the NT reinterprets the OT. . . . This comes perilously close to conflicting with such NT passages as Matt 5:18 and John 10:35b. (David L Turner)
The quotes above have been taken from an article at Mike Vlach’s website. You can read it HERE.
Dr Paul Henebury makes some observations of his own. Here’s one of them:
By assuming, without sufficient warrant, that the New Testament must be used to [re]interpret the Old Testament, CT in practice denies to the OT its own perspicuity, its own integrity as inspired revelation, and creates a “canon within a canon.”
Read the rest of Dr Henebury's post HERE.
The Old Testament must be interpreted by the New Testament. In principle it is quite possible that the prophecies addressed originally to literal Israel describing physical blessings have their fulfillment exclusively in the spiritual blessings enjoyed by the church. It is also possible that the Old Testament expectation of a kingdom on earth could be reinterpreted by the New Testament altogether of blessings in the spiritual realm. (Historic premillennialist George Ladd)
But eschatological themes are reinterpreted in the New Testament, where we are told these Old Testament images are types and shadows of the glorious realities that are fulfilled in Jesus Christ…This [literal interpretation of the Bible] leaves dispensationalists frequently stuck in the awkward position of insisting on an Old Testament interpretation of a prophetic theme that has been reinterpreted in the New Testament in the light of the messianic age which dawned in Jesus Christ. (Amillennialist Kim Riddlebarger)
Jesus and the apostles reinterpreted the Old Testament…Their selective and dualistic hermeneutic leads Christian Zionists to ignore how Jesus and the apostles reinterpreted the Old Testament. (Anti-Zionist Stephen Sizer)
Jesus spent His whole ministry redefining what the kingdom meant. He refused to give up the symbolic language of the kingdom, but filled it with such a new content that, as we have seen, he powerfully subverted Jewish expectations. (Theologian N. T. Wright)
Redefining? Re-interpreting? These “theologians” are dead serious! I’ve been reading self-proclaimed ex-dispie Kim Riddlebarger’s “A Case for Amillennialism” and have a potential bald spot from where I’ve been scratching my head re his methodology.
The OT has some specific and detailed statements that address the future of Israel. If the NT redefines or re-interprets these then it is nothing more than abrogation.
If Ladd is correct that the NT reinterprets the OT, his hermeneutic does raise some serious questions. How can the integrity of the OT text be maintained? In what sense can the OT really be called a revelation in its original meaning? (Paul Feinberg)
If NT reinterpretation reverses, cancels, or seriously modifies OT promises to Israel, one wonders how to define the word "progressive.‟ God‟s faithfulness to His promises to Israel must also be explained… It appears exceedingly doubtful that the NT reinterprets the OT. . . . This comes perilously close to conflicting with such NT passages as Matt 5:18 and John 10:35b. (David L Turner)
The quotes above have been taken from an article at Mike Vlach’s website. You can read it HERE.
Dr Paul Henebury makes some observations of his own. Here’s one of them:
By assuming, without sufficient warrant, that the New Testament must be used to [re]interpret the Old Testament, CT in practice denies to the OT its own perspicuity, its own integrity as inspired revelation, and creates a “canon within a canon.”
Read the rest of Dr Henebury's post HERE.
Sunday, December 19, 2010
Church age overlap?
Was there an overlapping of the Church Age and the Old Testament economy? Discussions along this line arise when the idea is put forward by “some” dispies that during the 7 year Tribulation; Grace will give way to Law again. In other words, this Age of Grace is an “interruption” in God’s plan for Israel. When that plan resumes, the Church won’t be there.
I’m eminently unqualified to make any emphatic or really informed comments regarding the Dispensation of Daniel’s 70th week and there seems to be debate among dispies regarding this anyway. However, I do think there are clues in Revelation that suggest that something has changed.
As an example, angels seal the 144, 000 – it's not performed by the Holy Spirit. The cry of the 5th seal martyrs for vengeance seems to be at odds with what we’d expect from “gracious” Church saints. One of the arguments posited for the Church going through the Tribulation is that it needs to be “refined”…
“When Jesus returns, He is coming back for a Bride “without spot or wrinkle” (Eph. 5:27). Can we truly say that if He returned today, the entire body of believers could be described as “without spot”? The seals are a time of refinement by fire so that the Bride may be presented blameless before Him. While the Church may be positionally righteous before God, this is a far cry from being without spot.”
Apart from the theological problems inherent within that statement - in light of Rev 6:10 we might ask, does refinement produce vengeful saints? And pity about the vast majority who miss out on that “refining” process by dying before the Tribulation!
In an attempt to debunk that Dispensational argument for the Church being absent, some argue that there was an overlap when the Church was birthed and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Following on from that, then the same can be said that during the 7 year Tribulation we can have an overlap where the Church is present as God judges Israel.
“…it would be impossible to defend the position that a Jewish man, living in Jerusalem, who was deemed righteous and acceptable before God under the Old Testament economy the day before Christ died, was, the day after Christ’s death, unrighteous and rejected.” Marvin Rosenthal
This isn’t a valid objection and it misses the point entirely. It’s also a straw man argument because it puts words into the Dispensational mouth. The hypothetical man’s salvation is speculation and a matter between himself and God. What is beyond doubt, however, is that there was no more need for the Old Testament economy’s rules relating to that salvation.
The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD had nothing to do with the cessation of the “Old Testament economy”. Once Christ died for our sins, any Temple sacrifice became obsolete. There is no overlap. A Jew offering a sacrifice in the Temple - after Christ’s work on the cross - was simply wasting his time. That sacrifice ceased to be officially acknowledged.
It’s true that God is currently working with Israel. He has brought a certain number of Israelites back into the land and has set up His “chess pieces” for the Final Week. However, it is called Daniel’s 70th week and that means Israel.
While some argue that “your people” in Dan 9:24 includes the Church and that the Tribulation saints are the Church, some of these also believe in a rapture that occurs during the 70th week where Israel gets left behind. A consistent reading of Dan 7:25 and Rev 13:5-7 would seem to be a problem for that view. There are other complications with blurring distinctions between Israel and the Church and the issues are more complex than some may realize.
But if there are seventy weeks allotted to Israel and there is an overlap where God works simultaneously with the Church and Israel then what makes the 70th week what it is? Again, if God is now working with the Church but also with Israel then what defines the 70th week and how is it different to the status quo?
I suspect that it’s not a matter of whether God can deal with Israel and the Church simultaneously during Daniel’s 70th week. It’s more a matter of the purpose for the Tribulation. One of those purposes is to put Israel through a process where the nation will be redeemed.
That has nothing to do with the Church.
While not intending to be dogmatic, I believe the Dispensational view is the most consistent in dealing with these issues.
I’m eminently unqualified to make any emphatic or really informed comments regarding the Dispensation of Daniel’s 70th week and there seems to be debate among dispies regarding this anyway. However, I do think there are clues in Revelation that suggest that something has changed.
As an example, angels seal the 144, 000 – it's not performed by the Holy Spirit. The cry of the 5th seal martyrs for vengeance seems to be at odds with what we’d expect from “gracious” Church saints. One of the arguments posited for the Church going through the Tribulation is that it needs to be “refined”…
“When Jesus returns, He is coming back for a Bride “without spot or wrinkle” (Eph. 5:27). Can we truly say that if He returned today, the entire body of believers could be described as “without spot”? The seals are a time of refinement by fire so that the Bride may be presented blameless before Him. While the Church may be positionally righteous before God, this is a far cry from being without spot.”
Apart from the theological problems inherent within that statement - in light of Rev 6:10 we might ask, does refinement produce vengeful saints? And pity about the vast majority who miss out on that “refining” process by dying before the Tribulation!
In an attempt to debunk that Dispensational argument for the Church being absent, some argue that there was an overlap when the Church was birthed and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Following on from that, then the same can be said that during the 7 year Tribulation we can have an overlap where the Church is present as God judges Israel.
“…it would be impossible to defend the position that a Jewish man, living in Jerusalem, who was deemed righteous and acceptable before God under the Old Testament economy the day before Christ died, was, the day after Christ’s death, unrighteous and rejected.” Marvin Rosenthal
This isn’t a valid objection and it misses the point entirely. It’s also a straw man argument because it puts words into the Dispensational mouth. The hypothetical man’s salvation is speculation and a matter between himself and God. What is beyond doubt, however, is that there was no more need for the Old Testament economy’s rules relating to that salvation.
The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD had nothing to do with the cessation of the “Old Testament economy”. Once Christ died for our sins, any Temple sacrifice became obsolete. There is no overlap. A Jew offering a sacrifice in the Temple - after Christ’s work on the cross - was simply wasting his time. That sacrifice ceased to be officially acknowledged.
It’s true that God is currently working with Israel. He has brought a certain number of Israelites back into the land and has set up His “chess pieces” for the Final Week. However, it is called Daniel’s 70th week and that means Israel.
While some argue that “your people” in Dan 9:24 includes the Church and that the Tribulation saints are the Church, some of these also believe in a rapture that occurs during the 70th week where Israel gets left behind. A consistent reading of Dan 7:25 and Rev 13:5-7 would seem to be a problem for that view. There are other complications with blurring distinctions between Israel and the Church and the issues are more complex than some may realize.
But if there are seventy weeks allotted to Israel and there is an overlap where God works simultaneously with the Church and Israel then what makes the 70th week what it is? Again, if God is now working with the Church but also with Israel then what defines the 70th week and how is it different to the status quo?
I suspect that it’s not a matter of whether God can deal with Israel and the Church simultaneously during Daniel’s 70th week. It’s more a matter of the purpose for the Tribulation. One of those purposes is to put Israel through a process where the nation will be redeemed.
That has nothing to do with the Church.
While not intending to be dogmatic, I believe the Dispensational view is the most consistent in dealing with these issues.
Wednesday, December 15, 2010
Mat 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. (Mat 24:36 ASV)
There’s a short video on the internet that draws attention to this verse. It gets pretribbers to acknowledge that this speaks of the rapture then it tells them that they’ve just admitted that the rapture is found in Matthew. Indeed, some pretribbers DO think the rapture is in Matthew but that’s another story.
As for verse 36, reading on from there it’s a long stretch to imagine that “that day” occurs immediately after the “great tribulation”.
37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. (Mat 24:37-39 ASV)
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Mat 24:21-22 ASV)
Note the extent of Matt 24:21-22 is global, not just Church persecution.
3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, Come. 4 And another horse came forth, a red horse: and to him that sat thereon it was given to take peace from the earth, and that they should slay one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, Come. And I saw, and behold, a black horse; and he that sat thereon had a balance in his hand. 6 And I heard as it were a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, A measure of wheat for a shilling, and three measures of barley for a shilling; and the oil and the wine hurt thou not. 7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, Come. 8 And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth. (Rev 6:3-8 ASV)
3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man shall desire to hurt them, in this manner must he be killed. 6 These have the power to shut the heaven, that it rain not during the days of their prophecy: and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they shall desire. (Rev 11:3-6 ASV)
All this presumably occurs immediately before the rapture when they are saying “peace and safety” and “drinking, marrying and giving in marriage”.
You get the picture.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. (1Th 5:2-3 ASV)
Here’s what R L Thomas has to say about Matt 24:36. Begin at the bottom of page 3:
IMMINENCE IN THE NT, ESPECIALLY PAUL’S THESSALONIAN EPISTLES
One more thing; Pretribbers are often taken to task for believing a “secret rapture” that, conveniently, is so secret it isn’t found in any verse. Interestingly, neither is the mid-trib, pre-wrath or post-trib rapture found in any verse…and they’re not even meant to be a secret. Strange that.
Footnote:
After posting this I came across a blog that asked the question “Why do PreTribbers always take Matthew 24:36 out of context?” (I could ask a number of questions about his rapture view as well.) The writer answers himself by saying they have to. Inserted among the objections was this gem:
“He (Jesus) continues that it will take the world at large by surprise just like the flood took everyone by surprise in the days of Noah. Except of course, Noah was not taken by surprise. This tells us that Jesus was teaching that His disciples would not be taken by surprise at His coming. So how could anyone reading this passage in its proper context come away with the idea that the second coming of Jesus as described in the Olivet Discourse could occur at any moment? That’s why the verse is taken out of context. The PreTribber will NEVER give the entire background when quoting that verse since it will undermine his unbiblical definition of imminency.”
Read the verses again. It couldn’t be plainer.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
That’s no one. Arguing that Noah knew is irrelevant to Matthew’s verses and not what Jesus plainly states.
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be."
The context is surprise and - guess what? No one will know.
Don't the post-trib and pre-wrath folk argue that the wrath at Rev 6:17 is still future? If that's the case then "the world at large" isn't taken by surprise either. That kind of distorts Matt 24:36 just a tad, doesn't it?
Claiming that "Jesus was teaching that His disciples would not be taken by surprise at His coming" is blatantly reading something into the text that isn't there. I believe there's another word for that...
Non-pretribbers have to argue this way because imminency undermines their view ;-)
Will Believers Know the Day?
There’s a short video on the internet that draws attention to this verse. It gets pretribbers to acknowledge that this speaks of the rapture then it tells them that they’ve just admitted that the rapture is found in Matthew. Indeed, some pretribbers DO think the rapture is in Matthew but that’s another story.
As for verse 36, reading on from there it’s a long stretch to imagine that “that day” occurs immediately after the “great tribulation”.
37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. (Mat 24:37-39 ASV)
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Mat 24:21-22 ASV)
Note the extent of Matt 24:21-22 is global, not just Church persecution.
3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, Come. 4 And another horse came forth, a red horse: and to him that sat thereon it was given to take peace from the earth, and that they should slay one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, Come. And I saw, and behold, a black horse; and he that sat thereon had a balance in his hand. 6 And I heard as it were a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, A measure of wheat for a shilling, and three measures of barley for a shilling; and the oil and the wine hurt thou not. 7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, Come. 8 And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth. (Rev 6:3-8 ASV)
3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man shall desire to hurt them, in this manner must he be killed. 6 These have the power to shut the heaven, that it rain not during the days of their prophecy: and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they shall desire. (Rev 11:3-6 ASV)
All this presumably occurs immediately before the rapture when they are saying “peace and safety” and “drinking, marrying and giving in marriage”.
You get the picture.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. (1Th 5:2-3 ASV)
Here’s what R L Thomas has to say about Matt 24:36. Begin at the bottom of page 3:
IMMINENCE IN THE NT, ESPECIALLY PAUL’S THESSALONIAN EPISTLES
One more thing; Pretribbers are often taken to task for believing a “secret rapture” that, conveniently, is so secret it isn’t found in any verse. Interestingly, neither is the mid-trib, pre-wrath or post-trib rapture found in any verse…and they’re not even meant to be a secret. Strange that.
Footnote:
After posting this I came across a blog that asked the question “Why do PreTribbers always take Matthew 24:36 out of context?” (I could ask a number of questions about his rapture view as well.) The writer answers himself by saying they have to. Inserted among the objections was this gem:
“He (Jesus) continues that it will take the world at large by surprise just like the flood took everyone by surprise in the days of Noah. Except of course, Noah was not taken by surprise. This tells us that Jesus was teaching that His disciples would not be taken by surprise at His coming. So how could anyone reading this passage in its proper context come away with the idea that the second coming of Jesus as described in the Olivet Discourse could occur at any moment? That’s why the verse is taken out of context. The PreTribber will NEVER give the entire background when quoting that verse since it will undermine his unbiblical definition of imminency.”
Read the verses again. It couldn’t be plainer.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
That’s no one. Arguing that Noah knew is irrelevant to Matthew’s verses and not what Jesus plainly states.
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be."
The context is surprise and - guess what? No one will know.
Don't the post-trib and pre-wrath folk argue that the wrath at Rev 6:17 is still future? If that's the case then "the world at large" isn't taken by surprise either. That kind of distorts Matt 24:36 just a tad, doesn't it?
Claiming that "Jesus was teaching that His disciples would not be taken by surprise at His coming" is blatantly reading something into the text that isn't there. I believe there's another word for that...
Non-pretribbers have to argue this way because imminency undermines their view ;-)
Will Believers Know the Day?
Tuesday, December 14, 2010
The Second Coming of Christ
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