God's Wrath in the 4th & 5th Seals

This is a re-post. I still see people asserting that God's wrath does not begin until after the 6th seal. They continue to assert that the 5th seal martyrs are one proof of this. But I don't see where they properly respond to arguments set forth by Showers and Fruchtenbaum. Some of the links may be broken.

In a terse response to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's citation of Ezek 14:21 to show that God's wrath is present in the 4th seal (Rev 6:8), Dr. Charles Cooper once declared:

Fruchtenbaum fails to notice that these words are spoken against Jerusalem and not one fourth of the world as indicated in the fourth seal of Revelation 6:7...The issue is whether Scripture indicates that God will use these judgments in the future against one fourth of the world. There is no prophecy in the Old Testament that God is going to use these judgments against the world during the "great tribulation." Not one!

Fruchtenbaum well understood that the opening of the 4th seal by Jesus Christ inaugurates events which are called God's judgments in Ezekiel 14:21, and also wrath and anger elsewhere. Cooper failed to adequately address Fruchtenbaum's numerous points (When The Trumpet Sounds pp 385-387).  Robert Van Kampen stated that one needed more information to determine whether God's wrath was present in the 4th seal, rather than a comparison with Ezek 14.

...we cannot automatically conclude that these refer to the day of the Lord's wrath until all the data concerning the seventieth week is analyzed. ~ The Sign (pp 479-480). 

Van Kampen had the evidence he needed but couldn't accept the conclusion due to his system's preconditions that God's wrath must occur after the 6th seal, and only during the prewrath timing of the Day of the Lord. So he needed to find a way around the problem. Likewise, Chris White's presentation asserts that the 4th & 5th seals are Antichrist's wrath. He notes that the word for by in Rev 6:8 is different to the withs and can also mean under. According to White, the term "wild beasts" is "therion" which can simply mean beast and context determines which translation is best:

It’s used 39 times in the book of Revelation, and 38 times the term refers to either the beast (as in the Antichrist), or the false prophet (the second beast), or the image of the beast, and it correctly is translated there as “beast”; However the translators, attempting to clarify the meaning in Revelation 6:8 incorrectly translated the text as “wild beast”– the only time it is not translated simply as “beast” in Revelation –the only time it is not translated simply as “beast” in Revelation; There is no grounds for the translation “wild beasts” in Revelation 6:8; Both famine and plague are here attributed to the methods in which these “beasts” kill, that is in addition to the sword.

Either way, the hierarchy of authority in the verse is obvious. Death and Hades are subordinate to the Lord who opens the seals. Following on from that, the four judgments are the instruments of Death. Psalm 90:7-11 firmly establishes the relationship between death and God's wrath (see Showers, Maranatha - Our Lord, Come pp117-118). White echoed Van Kampen's arguments from The Rapture Question Answered (TRQA p147). It is crucial for them to contend that famine, pestilence and sword all come under the authority and wrath of the Antichrist-beast, rather than God's wrath. On page 147 Van Kampen claims that Death and Hell are given permission "to test and kill, if necessary, those who claim the name of Christ". Notably, he claims this "fourth" doesn't involve the unbelieving world (TRQA p145). In this instance he seems to have departed from his "face-value" understanding.

Darrel Cline sums up why his arguments are convoluted:

Rather than seeing the rather obvious meaning of the fourth seal as death to a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth as a consequence of sword (warfare), hunger (famine), death (Death and Hell), and the beasts of the earth, Van Kampen limits the meaning to only the professing Church (plus Judaism) and makes this the "wrath of Satan against the elect of God". He does this for two reasons. First, he does it to make his "parallelism" between Matthew 24 and the seals more "apparent", and, second, he does it because his construct will not allow the world in general to be subject to divine wrath at this point in the scenario. 

Van Kampen also asserted that Rev 3:10 means preservation within the tribulation (pp175-178), although he is vague as to the nature of this preservation. How can Rev 3:10 be preservation within when there are 5th seal martyrs and posttrib saints to be resurrected? Note that some prominent prewrath rapturists have now taken tereo ek to mean "kept out of" and have consequently migrated to the view that Rev 3:10 indicates a posttribulational-prewrath removal of the church. Here, again, their strategy is to restrict God's wrath to the trumpets and bowls. See also Robert Thomas' The Comings of Christ in Revelation 2-3 

We should ask why God needs to use Satan to sift the church when there's a sorting-out judgment at the end of the tribulation (Matt 25:32). Why does God orchestrate this uniquely terrible period in history against the church and Israel, only to cut it short to preserve flesh (Matt 24:21-22)? Could God not continue to "preserve" the "elect" within the entire tribulation period, including His wrath? Still another problem is that the Antichrist is slain at Christ's appearing (2 Thess 2:8), which is immediately after the tribulation (Matt 24:29-30; Rev 19:11-21).

This view conflates Jacob's Trouble with the "testing of the church", but then it cuts that period short for the church. Jacob's Trouble and the Antichrist's period of authority are stated to be three-and-a-half years, and an unprecedented time of trouble (Jer 30:7; Dan 12:1, 7; Matt 24:21; Rev 13:5, 7, 12:6, 14). This is the time God uses to refine Israel (Hos 5:15; Zech 13:8-9; Mal 3:2-3 etc), not the church. Proponents of this system claim that Christ's warnings to the disciples are directed to the future church. Yet they finally differentiate between the church and Israel by having the former removed after a shortened great tribulation, while the latter remains on earth (Rev 12:6, 14).

Getting back to the 4th seal - there are very good reasons why translators render therion as "wild beasts". Aside from Ezek 14:21, Ezekiel 5 also references each of the four judgments mentioned in the 4th seal. Throughout the chapter they're referred to as God's judgment, anger (aph) and fury (chemah) e.g., Ezek 5:15.

So I will send against you famine and wild beasts, and they will bereave you. Pestilence and blood shall pass through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I, the LORD, have spoken Ezek 5:17 

If that isn't enough, in Ezek 7:3-19 we again find references to God's anger (aph), fury (chemah) and wrath (ebrah) associated with famine, sword and pestilence (v 15) and this time in context to the Day of the Lord's wrath (v 19).

Chris White also draws attention to the 5th seal:

The most interesting part of the 5th seal is that the martyrs are asking God how long it will be until He judges those that are killing them; This would seem to indicate that all that has happened so far in the seals (wars, famines, etc.), are not part of God’s judgment...

Pretribulationists point out that the martyrs' request is for God to avenge their deaths. God promises that this portion of His wrath will occur once the number of those to be killed has been fulfilled. However, there are martyrs waiting to be resurrected after God's wrath (Rev 20:4). As a solution, Van Kampen proposed that these were the 5th seal martyrs who weren't resurrected during the rapture (The Sign p 406). More recently, others have resorted to the posttribulational argument that Rev 20:4 is a recapitulation of what has occurred earlier.

The 5th seal does not preclude God's wrath from being present as part of God's sovereign plan to redeem the earth. In Isaiah 10:4-5 God states that He raised and used Assyria as the rod of His anger and indignation. Assyria is later punished for its actions (vv12-15). In When the Trumpet Sounds (p 394) Fruchtenbaum also cites Habakkuk chaps 1 & 2 to show that God actively (Hab 1:6) - rather than permissively - used the Chaldeans to punish Israel. Babylon was less righteous than Israel (Hab 1:13) and once God's will was accomplished, He also punished the Chaldeans (Hab 2).

According to Eschatos Ministries:

All pretribulationists (rightly) claim that believers will not experience the wrath of God (cf. 1 Thess 5:9). Yet this [5th] seal explicitly reveals that it is directed against believers, who have ended up as martyrs! So pretribulationists, according to their logic, have believers being killed by what they assume is the wrath of God. May it never be!

That is an odd statement about "logic" and assumptions considering Van Kampen's assertion that the 4th seal is authorized by God specifically against the church (and Judaism) and which results in martyrdom. This view posits that the church is exempt from God's wrath; therefore it cannot be present there. Authorizing these same OT-wrath judgments to be inflicted on the church appears to be okay, as long as God's motive isn't wrath. That is circular reasoning.

Pretribulationists note that the 5th seal reveals what has already taken place (see Showers' Maranatha pp 109-110). Unlike the previous seals, there is no hierarchy of authority administering punishment through a rider and horse. The reason for the saints' martyrdom is because of their testimony (Rev 6:9), not because of the seal.

Moreover, the prewrath position must have post-rapture unbelievers coming to faith in order to enter the millennium in their physical bodies. According to that view the 144,000 are saved immediately after the rapture of the church. At Rev 14:6, an angel preaches the everlasting gospel to those dwelling on the earth. Hence, contrary to the above objection, that view also has saints on the earth experiencing the "trumpets and bowls wrath". One might then ask - should the existence of these intra-wrath saints preclude a prewrath rapture? If not, then how does the existence of newly-saved tribulation saints, experiencing earthly conditions under God's wrath, disqualify a pretribulational rapture?

Finally, the Two Witnesses' ministry spans 1,260 days of the 70th week. Of these, Robert Thomas notes that: "Their power to accomplish their mission is phenomenal" (Revelation 8-22 p 90). Fire proceeds from their mouths; they can stop rain; turn water into blood and strike the earth with plagues (Rev 11:5-6). The scope of their ministry is so broad and effective that "the peoples, tribes, tongues and nations who dwell on the earth" celebrate their deaths because of the torment inflicted upon them by these prophets (Rev 11:9-10). Fire, plague and water into blood hearken back to Old Testament examples of God's wrath. The Two Witnesses are instruments of God's wrath.

I doubt that any of the above will sway someone who is predisposed to their preferred position. But claims that pretribulationists don't use scriptural arguments are way off the mark.

Further reading:

Myron Houghton's review of The Rapture Question Answered

Darrel Cline's The Rapture is When?

The Chronological & Sequential Structure Of Revelation

Alan Cole's Reviews Part One & Part Two

Cole's critique of the Pre-Wrath DOL

The Chronological Relationship of the Three Septet Judgments of the Tribulation
To Daniel’s Seventy Weeks

A Comparison of the Synoptic Eschatological Discourses
and Revelation 6–20

Michael Vlach on The Trinity & Eschatology

Great article by Mike Vlach:

Just as the members of the Trinity were actively involved in the creation, so too they are actively engaged in matters pertaining to the end, or what is often referred to as eschatology. The purpose of this article is to highlight how the various members of the Trinity are active in events still to come...keep reading

P.S. Keep an eye out for Mike Vlach's forthcoming book on the Kingdom. It is scheduled to be published in 2014.

PRESENT TRIBULATION VS. FUTURE TRIBULATION

Great article by Dr Thomas Ice:

Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: “The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation.” The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation...keep reading

I like the conclusion:

I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, “Hey babe, let’s get married.” Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:110) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:1121). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation a false conclusion. Maranatha!

No Fourth Seal Wrath?

For thus says the Lord GOD: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four disastrous acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild beasts, and pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast! (Eze 14:21 ESV)

And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. (Rev 6:8 ESV)

I’ve often argued that the wrath of God occurs before the opening of the 7th seal by pointing out the similarity of the language between Rev 6:8 and Ezekiel 14:21. Going over some of my study records I noticed this comment by Dr Charles Cooper in response to a critique by Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum:

“Fruchtenbaum fails to notice that these words are spoken against Jerusalem and not one fourth of the world as indicated in the fourth seal of Revelation 6:7. Rosenthal does not say that God has not used these judgments in the past as Fruchtenbaum indirectly intimates. The issue is whether Scripture indicates that God will use these judgments in the future against one fourth of the world. There is no prophecy in the Old Testament that God is going to use these judgments against the world during the "great tribulation." Not one!”

Dr Cooper is well within his rights to defend his system even though there are articles on his website that dish criticism out.

However, he seems to miss the obvious point. The issue isn’t who Ez 14 is addressed to in the OT but what the judgments were composed of and the fact that they were called judgments.

That they were called judgments in the OT and the same effects are released by the Lamb - who is the only one with the authority to open the seal - is compelling evidence that this is God’s wrath. Those who disagree must provide viable evidence to the contrary.

God’s wrath at the 5th seal

A while ago I came across an opinion at a rapture forum which I’ve heard a few times. One of the posters noted that God’s wrath couldn’t possibly occur during the opening of the seals because the 5th seal causes the martyrdom of the saints. Since the church is argued by many to be exempt from God’s wrath then it cannot occur at that point.

I’ve covered this in an earlier post. The opening of the 5th seal doesn’t cause the martyrdoms. What John saw had already occurred at the opening – the verb is in the past tense. Interestingly, the first four seals had riders on horses that parallel the chariots of Zechariah, but the 5th seal has no rider.

You could try to make the case that while the saints may have already been martyred at the 5th seal, the opening of the previous seals eventually contributed to it. Following on from that argument, you might then submit that, therefore, all the previous seals couldn’t be God’s direct or indirect wrath.

However, the same case can be used for the trumpet and bowl judgments. Eventually, whether you’re mid-trib, pre-wrath or post-trib you’ll still expect that someone must be saved in their physical bodies to enter and populate the Millennium. This must occur post-rapture and during God’s wrath. The chances are that some saved people will also die during God’s wrath whether by misadventure or martyrdom.

If you argue that there is no distinction between Tribulation saints and God’s church then those who are saved after the rapture are part of the church. Therefore part of the church will experience God’s wrath. That being the case, you have exactly the same quandary that you think applies to the pretribulational model.

DO BELIEVERS EXPERIENCE THE WRATH OF GOD?

Interesting article from Grace Evangelical Society exploring the concept of the wrath of God and how it may be administered to unbelievers and believers.

All who teach the grace message know the importance of defining concepts and words in order to interpret the Bible correctly. For this reason, grace advocates are serious when it comes to clarifying God’s message of grace. Yet, how serious and clear are we when it comes to understanding God’s message of wrath? Unfortunately, many Christians assume that whenever the expression “God’s wrath” appears in the Bible it usually means eternal judgment that falls only upon the unregenerate (Rom 1:18–3:20). This common interpretation surfaces two questions that will be answered in this article: “Do the Scriptures reveal the subject of God’s wrath to be temporal in nature and does God’s wrath fall equally on sinning believers as well as unbelievers?” The Greek word for “wrath” (orge„), with God as its executor, appears in Romans far more than any other NT book. Because Romans is written to Christians (1:7, 15), it will be vital to examine each passage where wrath appears in the epistle in order to meet this article’s objective. But first, it will be nec­es­sary to survey the OT and NT occurrences (outside of Romans) in order to see whether God’s wrath is temporal in nature and whether it falls equally upon sinning believers as well as unbelievers...continue reading

The Tribulation

I must confess that terms like the day of the Lord, the tribulation and the great tribulation confused me when I first became interested in rapture eschatology. Some would say I’m still confused and to a degree I think they might be correct. I am still trying to sort out some of these ideas.

Generally, pretribulationists call the 70th week of Daniel “The Tribulation”. While monitoring discussions between pretribbers and non-pretribbers I’ve seen claims (by non-pretribbers) that the last seven years are not ALL tribulation. One question I’ve often seen posed is this, “What makes you think there’s a Seven Year Tribulation?” The logic is that the term tribulation is only mentioned by the Lord in the Olivet Discourse describing the days that proceed after the Abomination of Desolation. So because the term wasn’t used for the first half of the week then it follows that those days are not tribulation. This idea assumes that if a word is missing from a group of Scriptures, the concept isn’t there.

Carrying on with that train of thought, because the Church is never promised to be spared from tribulation and the events following the AoD are tribulation, then the Church will be in the great tribulation. Further, some try to restrict the “great tribulation” to Satan’s wrath because of Rev 12:12. However, while this verse is telling us that Satan is coming down in wrath; this does not automatically mean that God’s wrath isn’t operational at that time.

The last half of Daniel's week (or part of it) is usually referred to as - the “Great Tribulation” - based on the Lord’s words in Mat 24:21. I should point out that the Lord did not just designate that period of time as THE “Great Tribulation” - what He actually did was describe the TYPE of tribulation of that time. He said it would be “GREAT” tribulation, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.” That distinction is important for two reasons:

1) I mentioned that some people argue that since Christ only called that period “great tribulation” then the first half of the week is not tribulation and, therefore, pretribulationists are wrong to label Daniel’s last week, the 7 year tribulation. I think this is erroneous on two levels:

a) Just because a word is absent from a set of Scriptures does not mean the idea is not there. Man’s wrath is not mentioned at all in the seals yet it is thought of as being there by some. The word Trinity isn’t mentioned in Scripture yet the doctrine is accepted.

b) The word for tribulation is thlipsis. Strong’s meaning is - pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble. The same word appears in Romans several times and Corinthians twice, set in a contemporary context. So given the meaning of the word; the fact that Christians have experienced thlipsis prior to the 70th week and the nature of the seal judgments, pretribbers are correct in calling the whole of the week, the tribulation, and this also assumes that the opening of the first seal initiates the 70th week.


2) Many hold that the “great tribulation” and the DotL are two DISTINCT periods. Yet if the “great tribulation” is a technical term that is distinct to the day of the Lord then we have problematical verses to resolve. Compare Matt 24:21, Jer 30:5-7, Dan 12:1 and Joel 2:1-2. These verses refer to Jacob’s Distress, the “great tribulation” and the day of the Lord as all being periods of unparalleled times of trouble. But if the GT is the greatest time of trouble then the DotL cannot be, and vice versa. Either Scripture is using hyperbole and it doesn’t really mean what it says or the DotL and the GT do, in fact, overlap in some way.

Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

“…nor ever will.” If this verse is talking about the Great Tribulation, and the great and terrible day of the Lord comes immediately after the GT as a separate and distinct period - then, according to the Lord’s own words, the DotL cannot be as terrible as the GT.

One very important issue is the teaching that the “great tribulation” - originally intended to be three and a half years – has been shortened for the sake of the elect based on Matt 24:22 and Mark 13:20. But I don’t think those verses teach a shortening of the GT in the way that is sometimes claimed. I suggest that the Lord’s meaning is that unless He intervenes and cuts short that period of time to three and a half years, no flesh will be saved. The elect is a composite of Israel and Tribulation believers (Christians/Church?). It is for their sake that the period is cut short otherwise they (the combined flesh) would not survive to populate the Millennium.

If we take the view that the GT is cut short because that period is so bad that no flesh would be saved then the day of the Lord must - by necessity - not be as terrible. The idea that the days are shortened ONLY for the sake of the elect has no logical significance if it is applied uniquely to the Church and the rapture. At the rapture, those who have died are resurrected anyway, so the “cutting short” is redundant for them. A comparison of all the Scriptures relating to that period - taken literally and in context - reveals that the GT/Jacob’s Distress is a full three and a half years.

Compare Dan 7:25, Dan 11:36, Dan 12:7, Rev 13:5, Rev 12:14 and finally Rev 20:4. God prophesied in Daniel and even caused a vow to be uttered to attest to it, that the period would be three and a half years.

Another reason given for the shortening of the GT is directly related to the Antichrist’s persecution of the elect – both Israel and believers. The argument is that if the beast’s persecution wasn’t somehow stemmed, there would be no saved people alive to enter the Millennium. Presumably, in this scheme, while the DotL is more terrible than the GT, somehow believers are protected through it. This would give time for some people to become saved after the rapture.

That the Antichrist’s persecution of the saints hasn’t been amputated is confirmed in Revelation which occurs after Matthew and Mark. We are told that the beast has authority to act for 42 months, confirming Daniel’s prophecy. Moreover, both Dan 7:25 and Rev 13:7 tell us that he conquers the saints. And finally in Rev 20:4 we see those who were martyred for not worshiping the beast are resurrected at the end of the week.

Given all this, we should ask ourselves why God – in His Omniscience – would need to change His mind. This would contradict His Immutability. If God knew and planned His sovereign purpose from Eternity Past, why would He prophesy that something would occur only to change it later? (Isa 46:9-11)

“…when someone changes his/her mind, it is often because new information has come to light that was not previously known, or the circumstances have changed that require a different kind of attitude or action. Because God is omniscient, He cannot learn something new that He did not already know.”


In summary I think that:

The term tribulation is applicable to all of Daniel’s last seven years.

Just because a particular word is absent from a set of Scriptures does not mean the concept isn’t there.

The last three and a half years are obviously worse than the first half and are generally referred to as the Great Tribulation (Jacob's Distress) – especially because Israel is the focus here.

There seems to be an overlap between the GT and the DotL based on some Scriptures.

The Great Tribulation is three and a half years. Matt 24:22 and Mark 13:20 should be compared in context with other Scriptures to understand what the Lord really meant.

Just because the Church is not promised to be spared from tribulation, it does not automatically follow that it will experience the events of the 70th week of Daniel. One needs to determine where the wrath of God occurs within the last week and I’ll try to address this soon.


Further reading:

GOD’S PURPOSE FOR ISRAEL DURING THE TRIBULATION

God’s Purpose For The Tribulation

WHY A PRETRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE?

Footnote:

The Bible associates a woman’s birth pangs with tribulation. See Jer 6:24, 50:43 and John 16:21. The same concept is used by Paul (1 Thes 5:3) and by the Lord referring to the period prior to the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:8).

What is the day of the Lord?

As mentioned in my previous post, not all pretribulationists agree on when the day of the Lord begins. There is also disagreement as to its scope and whether it includes the Millennium or not. For my purpose, I want to concentrate on when the day of the Lord actually begins because most rapture believers agree that it contains God’s wrath and the church is not destined to see His wrath.

Most often when people quote verses relating to the day of the Lord they’ll appeal to Joel 2:31 and Joel 3:14-15. Frequently these verses are associated with the cosmic signs of the 6th seal and Matt 24:29. For these people, the day of the Lord is the time of God’s wrath and is a distinct period within the last half of Daniel’s 70th week, or at the end. Some believe the day of the Lord begins at the 7th seal some time after the Abomination of Desolation. Many hold similar views but they do not see the seals occurring chronologically and so, according to their system, the day of the Lord occurs at the end of the week.

If we were to take the day of the Lord as a single event ONLY occurring AFTER the mid-point of the 70th week, we come to what I consider to be contradictions in Scripture. I struggle to see how an event with all the precursors we see in Revelation can be imminent or sudden and yet harmonize with what Paul is telling us in the following verses:

1Th 5:1-6 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

To summarize what Paul is saying: The day of the Lord will come like a thief – a thief takes something away and comes suddenly without announcement. The thief idea also occurs in Rev 16:15 but in that verse we do not have the same surprise element of Thess. Some see this remark as a parenthesis. Paul tells us that the day of the Lord comes when they are saying “peace and safety”, which is not occurring at Rev 16:15. Note that Paul also associates the destruction with the beginning of labor pains.

In Matt 24:8 the Lord mentions birth pangs occurring long before the Abomination of Desolation. In light of that, the birth pangs may be associated with the DotL and labor pains of 1 Thes 5. Can the earth dwellers be experiencing peace and safety after the Abomination of Desolation or post mid-week? Two main views have the DotL occurring after that event. An end of the week DotL has to occur after the gathering of the armies for the Armageddon campaign. And both post mid-week DotL versions occur after the 2nd seal where Scripture clearly tells us that peace is taken from the earth.

Rev 6:3-4 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come." And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

If we take both Rev 6:3-4 and 1 Thes 5:1-6 literally, then some aspect of the DotL must occur BEFORE the 2nd seal. One can try to stretch the timing of the seal within the framework of one’s presuppositions but the problem cannot be avoided. One should also note that the results of the 2nd seal are non-discriminatory and therefore include believers and unbelievers alike.

Problems also emerge for those who hold the DotL occurs at the 7th seal, regardless of where they place it within the 70th week.

Rev 6:15-17 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Some translations have “is come”. The claim is that the unbelievers are crying out in terror at the expectation that wrath of God/DotL is about to come (7th seal). In my opinion this has at least three problems:

One is of a linguistic nature – the expression the great day of his wrath is come is in the indicative mood with the augment. According to Dana and Mantey “A Manual Grammar of the Greek new Testament” pp 193-94, normally, that kind of aorist tense verb refers to an occurrence of that event in the past unless the context clearly indicates otherwise. A T Robertson and R L Thomas concur. See Showers’ “Maranatha – Our Lord, Come”. My position is that the unbelievers are simply reacting to what has just transpired and in light of what has been happening in the previous seal judgments. Therefore the wrath of God is present at that stage.

The next problem is that the statement is made by unbelievers who are in darkness (I Thess 5:4) and John is only quoting them, so it cannot be accepted without analysis.

Finally, given that they are terrified unbelievers (no peace and safety) and - according to Paul – in darkness, how could they possibly prophesy the 7th seal coming wrath of God/DotL and still harmonize literally with the 1 Thess 5:1-6? This is a contradiction.

The grouping of Joel 2:31, 3:14-15, Matt 24:29 and Rev 6:12-17 as a single event also has some problems:

We learn from Joel 3:14 that armies are gathering in the valley of decision before the day of the Lord. At the 6th seal we see the earth dwellers hiding in caves and among the rocks - NOT gathering for battle. No armies are said to be gathering there between the 6th and 7th seals. The only place where we read that the armies begin to gather in Revelation is at the 6th bowl (Rev 16:12-14). Any argument for a gathering of the armies between the 6th and 7th seals is speculation. It also contradicts the requirements for a harmonization of 1 Thes 5:1-6 and Rev 6:3-4. If armies are gathering for war at that time (before the DotL) then there isn’t any peace and safety.

Finally, a sequential and chronological order for Revelation has problems for those who see the cosmic signs of Rev 6, Matt 24 and Joel 3 as the same event because the Lord says “after the tribulation of those days”, yet the great tribulation lasts for three and a half years.

So there seems to be contradictions with comparing Scriptures describing the day of the Lord. Sometimes a narrow view is quite appropriate yet at other times it doesn’t fit. What’s the answer? I think a possible solution is that the term “day of the Lord” is not always meant to depict a narrow, single-day event.

“In itself, ‘the Day of the Lord’ is a general and comprehensive expression for the consummation of God’s purpose, alike in victory and judgment.” J. A.T. Robinson “Jesus and His coming” p 19

“It is a day that is a special time; and it is the Day of the Lord, belongs to Him, is His time for working, for manifesting Himself, for displaying His character, for performing His work – His strange work upon the earth…” A. B. Davidson “The Theology of the Old Testament in International Theological Library” p 374

"Though the 'Day of the Lord,' as the expression implies, was at first conceived as a definite and brief period of time, being an era of judgment and salvation, it many times broadened out to be an extended period. From being a day it became an epoch." A B Davidson “Theology of the Old Testament” p 381

J Barton Payne (The Theology of the Older Testament p 464): “The comprehensive phrase, by which the Old Testament describes God’s intervention in human history for the accomplishment of His testament is yom Yahweh, “the day of Yahweh’”

E W Bullinger in referring to the day of the Lord of Joel 2:31, “It is called ‘the great and terrible day of the Lord’, as if though it were the climax of the whole period known as ‘the day of the Lord.’”

The term “the great and terrible day of the Lord” of Joel 2 applies to Joel 3. Mal 4:5 also uses the term “the great and terrible day of the LORD” to describe the same event.

Given this, Dr Renald Showers in his book “Maranatha – Our Lord, Come” postulates (in agreement with other scholars) that there are two aspects of the day of the Lord. The broad aspect is when He begins to sovereignly inaugurate His program with the opening of the first seal - while the narrow aspect is the culmination of the great and terrible day of the Lord that we see in Joel.

In other words it’s like a teacher telling a student to prepare for an exam which will occur on a day yet to be revealed. All the student is told, at that point, is that the “terrible” exam will take place at 3:00 PM on that day. One day at 9:00 AM the student suddenly notices that the teacher is setting up the room where the exam will take place. So at 9:00 AM of that day, it is still exam day but the “terrible” exam does not commence until 3:00 PM.

The opening of the first seal is the beginning of the labor pains that are associated with the suddenness of the broad day of the Lord. Let’s look at some of the relevant verses again:

Mat 24:8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

1Th 5:2-3 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

Rev 6:4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

Further reading:

The Day of the Lord

Analysis of the Use of Cosmic-Sign Passages

THE DAY OF THE LORD AND CERTAIN SO-CALLED
“PRECURSORS”

THE CHRONOLOGICAL AND SEQUENTIAL STRUCTURE OF THE REVELATION